Consultations Homepage || Meeting Notes: 27 May 2003
Muslim Lawyers’ Group at Richard Griffiths Library, Melbourne, 27 May 2003
The meeting was attended by Susanna Iuliano and Omeima Sukkarieh from HREOC and by 7 invited participants from the Muslim Lawyers’ Group. The group is an informal social network (formed in late 2002) of Muslim lawyers practising in Melbourne.
1. What are your experiences of discrimination and vilification?
General
Participants were in agreement that there has been a general rise in the level of discrimination and vilification of Australian Muslims after 11 September 2001. While there was consensus that discrimination and vilification has risen, the group stressed that not all Australian Muslims have been equally affected – Muslim women have borne the brunt of it, particularly women who wear the hijab.
“I think there is no doubt that after September 11 there has been a rise in terms of the perception that you are a danger. From a woman’s perspective, if you wear the veil then you are seen as a fundamentalist – you are a danger.”
“You feel that you are always being scrutinised by people around you – it’s not an overwhelming thing – sometimes it’s very subtle in terms of people’s way of dealing with you. I think that it’s more from ignorance rather than from an attempt to put you down or discriminate against you.”
There was also a general perception that the public reaction to Muslim Australians following the recent Gulf War in Iraq had been calmer compared with the earlier reaction to 11 September 2001 and the Bali bombings in October 2002.
“After September 11, the community was in a state of fear – you walked down the street and everyone was pointing fingers looking suspiciously. After this Gulf War, the community was braced again for these kinds of actions - but personally, and from what I’ve heard from speaking to other people, it hasn’t been that bad because in the intervening period there has been a lot of discussion about how not every Muslim is a terrorist and about ‘what is Islam’. The awareness is growing slowly – very slowly.”
At work
All participants had legal qualifications and were working in a professional capacity as barristers, solicitors or consultants in private practice or for government. Several participants reported having experienced some form of direct discrimination in employment. However, the more common experience was indirect or subtle prejudice which arose from ignorance or uncertainty about Islam rather than outright racism from employers and colleagues. Participants agreed that professional workplaces were not immune from discrimination or prejudice, particularly when it came to hiring practices. There was consensus that Muslim women wearing the hijab face particular difficulties in obtaining employment in a professional law firm.
“15 years ago there was an article in the Melbourne Age about Muslim women and discrimination in employment. At this point, it seems as though it’s far worse than better – I think we’ve gone backwards.”
“They would never employ you in a commercial law firm with the hijab… I’ve actually had people tell me, ‘You take that (hijab) off and you can come’… In job interviews, I’ve had questions asked like ‘Does your husband let you work?’ or ‘Do you have children?’.”
“I went for an interview with one of the big national law firms and the woman [interviewing me] was floored. She literally spent the first few minutes reintroducing herself she was so shocked… a woman wearing hijab is the last person they expected to come walking through the door.”
“S”’s story encapsulates many of the issues faced by Muslim women in the professional workplace. In both of her last two jobs with commercial law firms, “S” gained employment without the hijab. “I didn’t wear the veil when I first started in the profession. I always wanted to, but for a number of reasons I couldn’t. Then after finishing my articles I really wanted to put it on.” Rather than suddenly appearing at work wearing the veil, she tried to gradually introduce her employer to the idea in a relaxed, informal setting. At a weekend work retreat, she asked a senior partner in her firm, “What would you think if I came one day putting on the veil?”. The partner choked on his food, gave her a blank look and after a few seconds said ‘What about the clients? What are they going to think?’”. “S” laughed off the response but later quit and moved to another firm. “I really wanted to wear the veil and I knew there was no future for me there if I wore the veil.”
“S” also began her next job without wearing the veil and again gradually introduced her new employer to the idea once she had become more established in her position. To allay concerns from the firm’s partners, she took a photograph of herself veiled and gave it to one of the partners for consultation with the other partners. She was told, “Look, I can’t really say anything. You can go ahead and put it on if you like and see what happens.” When “S” began wearing the veil at work, the firm’s partners were initially uncertain about how clients would react and limited her direct contact with clients. This changed after a few months when the partners relaxed and “S” had more client contact. While some of the other consultation participants were outraged that “S” needed to seek permission to wear the hijab, she felt that the whole experience had been a positive one and she stayed with that firm for three years.
“Most people are just ignorant about it - they don’t know how to react. The image that they have in their minds [of a woman in hijab] is just totally negative. When I prepared them for it I found it a really positive experience – they felt like they were part of the whole thing rather than just being forced to accept it.”
She also emphasised that Muslim women were not the only group whose progress in the legal profession was affected by appearances. She argued that other young lawyers who were perceived as different because of their culture or sexuality also faced difficulty gaining an initial foothold in the profession as firms were not prepared to invest in a person whose difference could pose a risk.
“Because you’re different, and it doesn’t matter what your difference is, - it’s not just being Muslim, its whether you look Middle Eastern, of if you have one eye – getting through the door is very very difficult. Many people do take off their scarves because of that.” However, “S” argued that the situation improves once given a chance to prove yourself professionally. “I have no problem going out and applying for a job now with my scarf – I am being headhunted because I am skilled in intellectual property.”
Like “S”, many of the consultation participants felt that while individual employers could be open-minded or tolerant, their fear or uncertainty about employing Muslims (particularly women wearing the hijab) was driven by their own perceptions of broader racism and discrimination amongst their clients.
“Even if they think, ‘Well I’m open-minded’, there is a concern at the back of their minds that, ‘Oh my clients are going to run out the door terrified…”
“I had a conversation with one of my managers once and he said ‘Look it doesn’t matter what I think, we have to react to the market. The market is not ready for this…”
One female consultation participant felt that this broader negative perception would only change over time as more Muslim women gained employment in professional positions and became more visible in offices and workplaces. She relayed how a recent trip to England, “was like going through a time warp and seeing what Australia could be like in 20 or 30 years. Sisters in hijab are so common there, every single professional office you walk into - they are there – they’re solicitors, doctors, teachers etc.”
In addition to talking about difficulties acquiring employment for ‘visible’ Muslims such as women who wear the hijab, consultation participants also described how more subtle misunderstandings can impact on work relations and capacity for promotion. For example, one of the male participants described the difficulties that can arise in relation to leave requests. During Ramadan, he requested two days leave on either side of Eid several months in advance from his employer, a major consulting firm. However, his employer had scheduled a major client presentation on those days and he was placed in a difficult position of having to choose whether to go home to celebrate Eid with his family or stay at work and do the client presentation. He did the client presentation but subsequently the firm took steps to ensure that he didn’t have to make such a difficult choice again. “It was an instance where they had never encountered that kind of situation before. Now that it has happened, they’re aware of it and they’re beginning to manage that. Maybe that’s the only way to resolve these experiences.”
Overcoming barriers to networking and building social connections with colleagues was another big issue raised in the context of workplace relations. The fact that many work functions are often held in pubs was seen not just as a social barrier, but as a barrier to professional advancement by many participants because of the perception that they may be missing out on networking opportunities at social gatherings.
“Work functions are normally drinks on a Friday evening. I still feel queasy about attending – sometimes you have to because you need to get to know people…”
“When you’re at court or on circuit the only way you get to know the magistrates or judges and other lawyers is to go out drinking with them. When I first started work I remember them saying to me, ‘You don’t drink, you don’t eat this meat, you don’t swear – you won’t get to know anyone…”
In public spaces
While the focus of the consultation was mostly on employment issues, several participants such as “S” relayed how they or their family members felt uncomfortable or threatened in public spaces such as on the street and in parks.
“Just yesterday for example my mum and brother were walking on the street and someone threw eggs out of a car at them.”
One participant told how fear and suspicion interrupted a simple picnic in the park for about thirty Muslim families during last years Eid celebrations. During the celebrations, a group of mothers and children who were playing games in a quiet section of the park were approached by a friendly ‘group of white people’ who came over and asked what the families were doing.
“Suddenly all the mothers were in a huddle whispering ‘they’re from ASIO – they’re here to check up on us’. In half an hour we were all out of there. It was ridiculous…One Muslim is bad enough – but in a pack it spells trouble. We get viewed with suspicion.”
Fear of investigation by the Australian Secret Intelligence Organisation (ASIO) or the Australian Federal Police was a common complaint. One young lawyer explained how she was working with a Sh’ia Mosque in Melbourne (whose members were mostly Iraqi) to help them set up a charity account to send money to Iraq for the construction of a hospital. The local Imam pulled out of the initiative for fear of raising suspicion with the Australian Federal Police who he feared would confuse their attempts to raise money for a hospital in Iraq with channelling funds to terrorist organisations in Iraq.
“When you can’t do a simple thing like collecting money for a good cause – which is a fundamental basis of any type of religious organisation – it just shows there is a big problem much deeper than simple prejudices...”
Aside from instances of direct or indirect discrimination because of religion or race, one of the participants relayed an incident where she felt hurt because of assumptions about her class made on the basis of her religion. After going to an expensive restaurant for a special night out with her husband, “S” was insulted when told to check the menus before dining in the restaurant. She felt that the waiter was insinuating that the restaurant would be too expensive for her because she was Muslim. In the lift leaving the restaurant, the waiter said, “see I knew it wouldn’t be appropriate for you, it’s too expensive.” She felt hurt that the waiter had made an assumption about her status and ability to pay based on the fact she was Muslim. “I just was just shaking at that moment…I didn’t know how to react. We just walked out – but it ruined the whole evening – you just feel really put down.”
Criminal justice system
The experiences of discrimination faced by young Muslim men in the police and criminal justice system was the particular concern of two young solicitors whose work with Legal Aid and the Aboriginal Legal Service brought them into contact with young Muslim defendants.
“Of course Muslims and Arabs are targeted…Police are ready to charge Muslims immediately – in civil disputes, in anything…Guys get abused, they get called ‘terrorists’ and ‘Bin-Ladens’ by the police. I’ve actually heard of police prosecutors beating Muslims with the Yellow Pages calling them ‘you terrorists’. Admittedly, many of our clients do plead guilty – but still that’s not the kind of treatment they’re entitled to…”
“Many Muslim clients have their children taken away under supervision orders. Clients tell us all the time about the treatment they get from police and I see it. The police do nothing about it…”
“The differences in Australian law and Islamic law, especially in domestic issues, is a big problem and is creating a lot of issues…”
Local government
The issue of obtaining local government approval for mosques and prayer rooms surfaced throughout the consultation. One participant described a situation in the eastern region where an application to build a mosque was eventually approved by a local Council in Eastern Melbourne despite concerns from local residents who criticised the Council for its actions. The issue of serving halal food at Council functions was also raised in the context of the media ‘storm in a teacup’ over the actions by the Hume City Council in banning pork from Council functions.
Other
The issue of asylum seekers was raised briefly during the consultation by one participant who felt that there needed to be more parliamentary debate about the issue. She was also critical of the Prime Minister’s portrayal of asylum seekers as ‘illegals’ which she felt was feeding hostility and prejudice amongst the general public and affecting people’s reactions to her personally. “I’m Iraqi and people look at you as someone who is an intruder; as someone who has no right to be an Australian or be in Australia…”
2. What is being done to fight anti-Arab and anti-Muslim prejudice and discrimination?
Muslim Lawyers Group
The formation of the Muslim Lawyers Group is a small but positive initiative. The group is a loose affiliation of legal professionals practicing or qualified to practice in Melbourne. An effort was made to form a similar group at the end of the last Gulf War which had been unsuccessful. The group began meeting in 2002 to discuss a range of issues relating to discrimination and vilification. ‘K’, who formed the group, was encouraged to bring Muslim lawyers together in a discussion group after confronting elements of discrimination and vilification in the course of his work as a barrister.
At an informal level, many of the members of the group were actively challenging stereotypes about Muslims and ignorance about Islam by clearly identifying themselves as Muslims in professional contexts. For example, group members mentioned that seeing their colleague “S” (who wears the hijab) publish her photograph alongside her articles in legal journals helped challenge people’s misconceptions about Muslim women. Other non-veiled participants spoke out to identify themselves as Muslims and challenge prejudice or ignorance.
“I don’t wear any distinct cultural markers like the hijab which identify me as a Muslim – but after September 11 in the course of dealings with friends or acquaintances, I let them know I am a Muslim. I don’t drop it into every conversation, but I do mention it if it might provide some insight into something like the Hume Council affair.”
“I was at children’s court one day and a prosecutor said to a kid with an Arabic name ‘Oh are you related to Bin-Laden?’ I said to the prosecutor, “Excuse me – I am a Muslim, does that mean we’re all terrorists?”
Government strategies and projects
Complaint hotlines
The passage of the Victorian Racial and Religious Tolerance Act in 2001 was noted by members of the Islamic community in Melbourne who received information about it through their local mosques at Friday prayer. After September 11, Islamic religious leaders brought people’s attention to the anti-discrimination law. They also publicised the complaints hotline which was set up in the wake of September 11 by the Islamic Council of Victoria. One participant explained that the general reluctance for people to come forward and complain to this hotline was fear of further discrimination.
“If you have a personal incident happen, the general tendency is that you want to put it behind you. Pursuing it can increase the discrimination.”
Anti-discrimination law
Several of the participants felt that the current anti-discrimination law in Victoria had an important symbolic value, but could not be used effectively to deal with the media or institutionalised racism among police
“The law in Victoria doesn’t cover institutionalised racism…there aren’t enough consequences. Even when the Islamic Council of Victoria tried to use the racial vilification laws against the Herald Sun newspaper – the defence is always freedom of speech.”
Most participants felt that the complexity of the complaints process discouraged people from coming forward.
“As practicing lawyers, we hate to make complaints because we know what it involves – it’s alienating to me…We advise our clients of the nature and complex process of complaints and they get put off – it’s too difficult.”
3. What more could be done to fight anti-Arab and anti-Muslim prejudice and discrimination?
The meeting proposed the following strategies for achieving the six objectives identified by Isma.
Promoting positive public awareness
Breaking down prejudice through education was a key issue that surfaced repeatedly throughout the consultation. Ignorance rather than malicious racism was seen as the cause of most prejudice and discrimination therefore addressing the broader public’s ignorance about Islam was a seen as a major challenge. At an individual level, many of the participants were already actively challenging stereotypes about Muslims and ignorance about Islam.
Cross-cultural training
At an institutional level, participants felt that more effective cross-cultural training, particularly for police, was crucial. One participant explained that Muslims are hesitant to go to police because of cultural differences.
“Even when there are problems in the community, people tend to try and solve it in-house by going to the Imam or going elsewhere - that can have another negative impact especially in domestic situations.”
Building bridges between the police and Muslim communities was seen as vitally important. One participant suggested creating designated Muslim liaison officers in the same way there are designated Koori Liaison Officers in police forces. Participants also questioned whether police currently receive any cross-cultural or diversity training and whether this training had any particular focus on understanding Muslim or Arab Australians. Participants argued that if police aren’t already offered it, this training should be a compulsory part of a police officer’s continual professional development. They also suggested that the training itself should be more than a lecture or a pamphlet but should include interaction with young people from the communities they police.
“They need to know the people they are policing. There is no point in having an organisation leader or lecturer come and speak because they aren’t going to run into him on the street – it’s the actual kids that they are going to be working with they need to speak with.”
Media portrayals
One participant felt strongly that Muslims need to be shown on television in order to be considered part of Australian society. The only time Muslims are shown on Australian television is when they are cast as villains or victims. There is no recognition of the diversity and complexity of Muslim communities in Australia on Australian television.
“We need to be seen as part of Australia – I don’t think we’re seen…You watch Australian television and it’s like Muslims are not part of society at all. Take Neighbours for example – have there been any Muslims on Neighbours?”
Challenging vilification, discrimination and stereotypes
The group thought that Muslim professionals have an important role to play in dispelling myths about Islam and felt it was important for Muslims to identify themselves as Muslims in a professional context. Consultation participants believed that an effective way to confront people’s prejudices is to show that Muslims occupy a diverse range of positions in Australian society.
“There are Muslims in all sectors of society – that is somewhat lost in the perception of rape gangs in Sydney or issues like that which become part of the public image of Muslims.”
“If one person can break down a barrier slowly, that helps. You need a few role models or examples…”
Legal remedies
Participants argued that the law was of limited value in challenging vilification. One participant recalled how during passage of the Victorian Racial and Religious Vilification Act the press were anxious that the law would impact on their freedom of speech. However, one participant pointed out that the ‘experience has proved otherwise’ with the exemptions for free speech imposing significant barriers for complainants.
“People have to be moved and organised enough – it’s not something that can be done lightly at the drop of a hat…. It’s a bit like defamation laws – it’s only the rich in the end who can use them to protect their reputations…”
Providing community support
Community capacity building
“Muslims don’t know how to get resources.”
Participants agreed that Muslim community organisations, including Islamic schools, are under-resourced and that Muslim organisations have to push for more funding. Opinion was split as to whether government should make its grant processes more accessible to Muslims or whether it was up to community groups to fight for funding. Several participants pointed out the difficulty of applying for funding without any resources to start with. In relation to funding applications, the issue of religious versus ethnic identity surfaced. One participant pointed out that Muslim organisations often apply for grants on the basis of being a women’s group or ethnic group because of the perception that they will not get funds on the basis of their religion. Groups have learned to emphasise racial or ethnic grounds over religious identification. “Even though organisations are often a combination of religious plus ethnic groupings, the broader community finds it hard to understand the umbrella identification of ‘Muslim’... it may be hard to get funds if they are thought of doing it for missionary or evangelical purposes.”
Strengthening relationships between and within communities
One participant stressed that much work needed to be done within Muslim communities to increase trust and communication. It was also up to communities to look beyond their own organisations and pro-actively engage with and educate other groups in society.
“The Muslim community should look internally and see what their strengths are and focus on their strengths and disseminate knowledge and awareness among themselves.”
Informing communities about their rights
Providing information about complaints in appropriate languages (for example Turkish and Arabic) and informing people about their rights through appropriate channels such as through mosques or Muslim radio was seen as vital to a successful public information campaign.
“ A lot of first generation Muslims, their English isn’t that great and they don’t know the processes (to complain) or feel comfortable with them…”
Ensuring complaints are taken seriously
Most participants were sceptical about the effectiveness of complaints processes although all acknowledged that anti-discrimination laws and complaints processes have an intrinsic symbolic value. All participants identified police as key players in ensuring that complaints are taken seriously.
“You can have legislation but someone has got to enforce it and the mechanisms for enforcing are through the police so they become a very important factor in all of this…[However] people are hesitant to go to the police – there is an access to justice issue. ”
The effectiveness of current complaint systems in relation to policing was questioned by several of the participants. While the Police Ombudsman offers some recourse for Muslims who face discrimination by police, the Ombudsman was seen as ineffective in providing justice in individual cases. Protecting the identity of complainants was seen as particularly problematic.
“The simple fact is we don’t even recommend most of our clients put in complaints because they then become marked by the cops…We have all these mechanisms to complain – but what do we do to protect our clients from being further harassed and marked, especially when it comes to the police? Who polices the police?”
Complaints relating to discrimination in the workplace were also seen as problematic. “No one is going to be stupid enough to say ‘I’m not going to give you the job because you’re Muslim.” While the difficulty of making complaints was acknowledged by all participants, they also recognised that complaints generate statistics which can be used to direct policies that may bring about positive change. If these statistics are not available due to paucity of complaints, one participant suggested that more careful monitoring of statistics in situations like employment may help to identify the broad trends in discrimination – particularly in hiring practices.
Participants were aware of the discrepancy between federal anti-discrimination law and the Victorian state law in its coverage – or rather lack of coverage – of religion as a ground for discrimination and vilification. While participants were sceptical that legislative change to the federal Racial Discrimination Act would be effective in eliminating prejudice against Muslim Australians, all agreed that changing the law would send an important symbolic message and would have spin-off benefits in terms of its educative value. If the push for legislative change was to progress, participants cautioned of the need to construct the debate with utmost care to avoid further recrimination against Muslim communities.
“If people think that changes to the law are being brought about purely for the benefit of Muslims then they’ll see it as another change caused by outsiders coming in…it might actually get hard for the Muslim community.”
One participant suggested that the way to avoid any backlash against Muslims was to construct a debate about the need for legislative change including other religious groups such as Sikhs and Jews.
“If you make it a group effort on behalf of all religious groups then surely it will be ok. We have to show how it’s affecting a large part of the community – not just Muslims.”
Other issues and suggestions
One of the other
participants suggested that affirmative action policies for Muslims may
help overcome barriers to employment. This suggestion was seen as unrealistic
by most other participants, one of whom argued that affirmative action
policies would be humiliating for individuals who are held up as ‘token’
figures in professional workplaces.
