Consultations Homepage || Meeting Notes: 23 June, 2003
Consultation with Muslim women hosted by the United Muslim Women's Association, Sydney, 23 June 2003
The meeting was chaired by Ms Maha Krayem Abdo, President of the United Muslim Women's Association, and facilitated by Omeima Sukkarieh (notes) and Susanna Iuliano from HREOC. It was attended by 40 invited participants. Omeima interpreted the Arabic.
What are your experiences of discrimination and vilification?
Experiences with neighbours
"I have a Christian neighbour, a Lebanese Christian. We were very close as neighbours. We had limits but we used to visit each other from time to time. When I started covering my face, she stopped talking to me. Suddenly I was no-one without any reason. What I did was I ignored it but then her sister came from Lebanon and I said look, I'm a Muslim and my religion teaches me to be kind to all people no matter what their background is. So when her sister came from Lebanon I went and I said 'Welcome. I'm glad your sister's here'. And then she started changing. We have to be positive. Sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. It's not always a positive outcome. But we have to keep on trying and do what our religion teaches us to do."
Experiences in public places including shopping centres
A number of participants described not only their experiences of abuse in public but the impacts on them of those experiences.
"About a month ago I went to the shopping centre in Lakemba and this man must have seen me leave my house and followed me and told me to go back to my own country and to get lost. I was so humiliated and I called my sister to come and meet me. I was scared because there was no-one in the street. It took me about 7 days to go back out but only because I urgently needed to buy some groceries because my husband works long hours and couldn't do it."
"I was parking my car in Campsie and my car accidentally touched another car and someone standing at the shop door shouted out 'Where do you think you live. Go back to your own country; you deserve to drive a camel!'"
"An incident happened to my mother during the first Iraqi war on the train where a man pulled her scarf that he almost choked her. Because I cover my face I get very abused and get called names such as 'Darth Vader', 'Batman', all of it. This happens everywhere I go. One lady was calling me names from her car while we were driving and I was so distracted that I hit another car. People in the shopping centres start shaking their heads and once I told this woman who was doing that to be careful otherwise she might break her neck. There is so much negativity even with people who serve you and are meant to be doing their job. From that time over ten years ago my mother does not catch the train anymore and has relied on me ever since."
"I used to always go down to the city as a day out with my kids but a year ago, I was physically abused and since then I no longer step out of the house alone, not a train to the city or anything."
"It frightens the children also. An old woman told my daughter off and she's only 15 years old and what happened after that was that my daughter stopped going to tutoring on Saturday because she no longer wants to catch public transport. This happens often."
"I have a daughter who looks like an Australian and as if she isn't Lebanese. The first time, an Australian woman saw me standing at the bus stop with my daughter and she said 'I don't know how an Australian woman can put her daughter with a Muslim woman'. So I just started laughing. I didn't say anything, I just laughed, because she was my daughter. The second time I went to the city to walk around with my daughter again and a woman said to her friend, 'See that woman; she has brought the neighbour's daughter to be with her.' I thought it was funny. People just think that I bring along my daughter's friend or someone else's daughter and take her out with my kids. They look at me as if they are afraid for her safety or disgusted at the thought or something."
"I've always lived in areas where there are not many Muslims, so I think that's got a lot to do with it. I walk with my son and you hear people saying 'Osama Bin Laden, look at him'. I would go to the day-care centre in North Sydney and of course there are very few women in hijab and the mothers would be like 'Oh God, what's she doing here?'"
"I was shopping at Grace Bros recently and I was buying some stuff and this lady was following me and staring at me. All the time she was looking at me and I just kept walking away from her. I just stopped shopping and I hadn't finished."
Experiences in public transport
Several participants described experiences they had at airports or on planes.
"About three months ago we were coming from Lebanon and we were traveling from Dubai to Australia and there were three seats: two for me and my husband and one lady was sitting. As soon as we wanted to get into our seats, she looked at us and when she saw us coming in, she called the air hostess and said 'I want to move'. I was really, really upset because we didn't even sit in our seats and as soon as she saw me of course, because you know I was covered, she moved. From Dubai to Singapore she was sitting separate from us. In Singapore there were more people flying so she had to come back. But then we said to her 'Maybe you are not comfortable sitting next to us. Maybe they will find you another spot to sit with someone else'. We tried to find her another seat. And then she started to relax and talk to us."
"I was coming back from overseas two years ago and in the quarantine area this lady took me to a special room and put all my luggage through this machine I hadn't seen before and every single thing from my luggage was out and all over the place and they asked me a question I hadn't even heard before 'Do you have a weapon? Do you have a knife with you?' And actually I had a knife and it was in my luggage because I had brought some stuff from my house there and I had completely forgotten about it. She asked me again 'Do you have a weapon?'I said 'You can see I have no weapon'."
"You set the beeper off sometimes and it could be anything when you walk through. And the moment you set them off it's like all the eyes are on you and you know they're asking whether or not you could be a terrorist."
Experiences in the job market
Two women described the difficulties faced by their sons in gaining employment because of their given names - both Ahmad.
"An ad in the paper wrote that they wanted people to work, and they wanted a male and they specified an age. My son Ahmad went with his two sisters. They went in there knowing that they also wanted females. My daughter went in first and the lady saw her. My daughter is a teenager and she's coloured her hair and she's fair with blue eyes. She looks Aussie not Lebanese. She finished and she went outside. My other daughter also went in and the lady thought the same of her because they both look alike. And the girl's names seem western, not like the boy's name. When she asked him what his name was and he told her it was Ahmad, she straight away said 'No'. He went home and told me that he felt like putting a bomb underneath her to blow her up because she just kept shaking and shouting and she wouldn't keep quiet. He told her that he didn't want the job. ... To this day my son still can't find work. He's sitting at home. He told me that he wanted to change his name because his name is Ahmad and he can't find work."
"My son's name is Ahmad. From his name, they won't employ him. He changed his name now because he works for Building Agents. They call him Allan now. And they gave him the job straight away. There are so many people who have changed their names and I was wondering why; but now I know."
"There was one thing that happened to my son. He has a plaster company and after he finished the job, a Greek owner of the house asked him 'Where are you from?' And he said 'I'm a Muslim'. He paid some of what he owed him for the job and when he was supposed to pay him the remainder after he finished the job, he swore at the Muslims and said he refused to pay the rest of what he owed and 'what are you going to do about it?' My son said 'I'll tell you what I'm going to do. I'm going to come to you, and I know where you live and if you don't give me my money I will hurt you, like you are hurting me. I want what you owe me.' My husband who worked with them a few days to help out got a phone call from the Greek guy telling him that his son was threatening him and when he asked him why he told him the story but said that he was only joking around with him. So my husband told him to just pay what he owes. So he paid them. I told them after that not to tell anyone they're Muslims because we don't want any problems after the war on Iraq."
Experiences with health and other services
One participant described the experience of one of her clients with a community health nurse following the birth of her third baby.
"She's a convert to Islam and she got her third baby. She named him Mohammad and he's the most beautiful red head little boy. Anyway, one of the community health nurses rang her up at home and said to her 'I've got to come and give him a check'. Her [client's] name is very Australian. Everything was really calm. There was no problem whatsoever. [Then the nurse asked] 'What did you call your baby?' And she said 'Mohammad'. The nurse said 'Oh is it safe?' And [the mother] had no idea what to say. She froze. She rang me up straight away and she told me what happened and she didn't know what she meant: Is it safe to call the baby Mohammad? Is it safe for her to come? She actually meant, 'Is it safe for me to come to your house?' The nurse has got her information so distorted in so many ways that she has no idea what she's talking about. ... the name has actually triggered all those bad feelings in this person."
Another described the following experience which occurred not long after the first Gulf War.
"This incident happened nine years ago. I gave birth in the hospital. It was when the war started that they started showing this racism. I gave birth and I wrote on the application that I can't breast feed straight away and I needed some food for my daughter. My daughter was hungry. I'd put her on my breast and there was no milk so she would still be hungry. It was three days later that the nurse gave me a paper to sign at 12 midnight and asked me that if my daughter was hungry then she would give her a bottle. No-one tried to help me or even asked me where I was from. I accepted that but the day that I was leaving to go home, a blonde nurse came to give my daughter a hepatitis needle. Until now, I will never forget how she gave her that needle. I always say 'God never forgive her'. She put the needle in my daughter's thigh and twisted it in her thigh. All the hate, she put forward. I had just arrived so I didn't know how to speak English."
Experiences with police
Most police-related incidents reported involved policing of driving, especially involving young male drivers. The participants were critical of what they perceived to be over-policing, rudeness and lack of respect as well as one violent incident.
"The police are the ones that are doing the discriminating. We were at the markets working and after we were driving to go home and the police stopped us and asked my son-in-law for his license but he was so rude about it. He was almost being provocative as if he wanted us to cause trouble. The lady who was sitting at the back, a relative, wasn't wearing her seatbelt. She was asked to get out and she did although we thought that was strange. I don't know why but he [police officer] was very aggressive. I got out and tried to defend her and he pulled my hair. This happened three months ago.
"After that the girl was hit. He physically abused her. Her husband got out and there was a lot of yelling. They shot spray [ie capsicum spray] into her eyes and they sprayed it at her husband too and then me. They called for back up. They put them in a jeep [ie a panel van], and my daughter in a jeep. They left me on the road. I asked them not to leave me behind. I kept yelling to them 'I can't speak English. Take me anywhere. Take me home. I can't speak English.' He said to me 'Just shut up you old lady, you big lady, you pig. You're going to die here.' And when he said that, I told him that he was a pig and 'You will die here, I won't'.
"So he dragged my son in law in front of all the cars to a bush area where no-one could see him and he sat on him and started beating him up. When I saw that, my daughter-in-law begged me to tell them to get off him and I told him 'Get off him you pig, you've stopped him from breathing'. He told me that I was the pig and I was going to die here. I got back onto the road and called out to the people to come and see what the police are doing. People obviously are scared of police when they see them, and must have thought that I must have done something wrong. A car passed and I stopped it and asked for help. The guy was happy to help and when I told him the story, he asked if I wanted to use the telephone and I told him that I didn't know anyone's number. The police saw this guy try to help and as the police neared him, the guy told me that he couldn't help me so he got in the car and drove off. A guy came from our village in Al Minia, he stopped and asked me what was wrong and when I told him the story he told me that they are bastards whoever they are, and he told me to get in the car. The police tried to approach him but he just took me and left. I don't know what happened to my daughter and my son-in-law at that time.
"I completed a first complaint claim in the court against the police and the last one is in 2-3 weeks time. They [ie the police] told us that they wanted to take it to court. But, Thanking Allah, we were the ones who won the claim. Now the lawyers say that we've got 100% chance of winning the claim. I put the best lawyers and they took $2,500 just so that I have a chance of winning. We don't want anything; we just want to know what police think they are doing."
Another participant also described an incident in which she was personally involved.
"I was stopped once by the police for RBT on Canterbury Rd. It was Ramadan and we were fasting and I finished the prayer. It was 11 at night. I took my mum home and then it was 12 midnight. I came back home and I was driving on my own and my little girl was at the back. She was strapped in and everything. He [the policeman] says to me 'Can you take the RBT?' I said to him that I'm badly asthmatic, especially after I have my 'iftar' [break fasting]. I tried to do it but it was really bad. I couldn't do it because I hadn't had my puffer all day. The policewoman then says to me 'I can't let you go until you do the test'. I said 'Look, I'm not going to have it done from now 'til tomorrow morning because I haven't got my asthma puffer with me'. She says to me 'Okay, I'll ask the constable then'" She went and asked him and he said 'Okay, let her go'" I know that a lady with a hijab and at 12 midnight is not usual and I told her that I came from the mosque and I'm taking my mum home, I haven't got my asthma puffer. She kept me for five minutes trying to puff and the more I puff, the worse I get. The way they treat the people, it should be more respectable than that."
Participants discussed the policing of young Arab male drivers.
"My son now is not allowed to drive. He's 22 and he's working. How am I supposed to take him around driving for hours? Just because of their looks?"
"Or they give them a defect on their car. Don't worry; my son's got one as well."
"I went to court because of this. They said that my son has been caught many times without a license but how do you expect him to get to work?"
"It happened to my son many times. If they were driving and very slowly, they would stop them all the time before my street even if they were not doing anything. They just stop and check the van and sometimes the boys can't take it. It's their pride and when they speak to them very tough and this is where the problems start."
The following incidents were said to have occurred at Sydney train stations.
"Stirring trouble against the school students, that's the most important thing. School students are not going to tolerate that. They're going to react violently to the way the police are acting. I'm the P&C president and I wanted to go the station for five days in a row to see how the police were reacting to the students and it was really bad. ... They [police] were walking around stirring trouble. Okay they were going to open up their bag, that's the law. They opened up their bags. They asked them, 'Have you got tickets?' Okay, the boys have got the tickets for the trains. They get them from school. They don't have to pay money for trains anyway. They get them from the schools. 'Can I see your tickets?' One of the students said 'I haven't got it because I left at home. It was in my other school pants and I came with different pants today.' She said to him 'Naughty, naughty, naughty. You stand there. I'm going to charge you for that.' Why is she talking to him like that? He's only a student. He's only in year 8; he's only 13. This is why our boys get really angry at the police officers."
"I've got an issue too. When the boys went on the train - I'm talking about the mature boys, not the year 8 and 9 - went on the train to the rally on the first time (that was the anti-war rally and that was authorized). [On their way back at Strathfield Station] they found 12 police officers in blue uniform. ... Anyway the boys were told to go on their knees, put their hands behind their backs. As soon as the train stopped they got in the train quickly and said 'Get up boys. Put your hands behind your backs and go on your knees'. The boys 'What did we do? We just came from the rally?' The police asked one of the ladies - an Australian lady who was sitting down - 'Have they been naughty or breaking things on the station?' She said 'No, I haven't seen anything'. The boys said 'What did we do sir?' [Reply was] 'Shut up! Don't you talk!' Like that, you know, it's rude. And one of the boys had a booklet called 'Get Street Smart'; they've got solicitors for under the age of 18, you can ring up at anytime. And then the boys said 'We've got this booklet, sir'. And he said to him 'This is out of date!' Anyway, he humiliated them, he insulted them badly, verbally and everything.
"The boys came up and told me what they did. I took the incident up on behalf of three boys. They were really badly humiliated by the police officers. They rang up the high school and apologised on behalf of those police officers, the way they treated our boys. But what's the apology going to do after the humiliation in front of all those people on the train. It's really disgusting. Anyway, they sent an apology letter [saying] 'We want to come and meet the boys. I want to take a picture and put it in the Torch newspaper and we're going to give them presents.' I said "I don't want that to happen in my school. I'm the P&C president and I don't want that. I don't think that parents would be happy with that at all. I don't want my boys to be identified and to be told by the police. They're going to pick on them, of course.' If they wanted to be nice, they would've been nice from the beginning. We don't want any apologies."
The women described the way young men especially react to such treatment by the police.
"They react violently. They've been abused a lot and the students have that limit."
"You feel that the boys are really tense. They answer back, the boys. They speak to us and respect us but the boys and girls, you feel they [ie police] provoke them."
"Our children now when they see the police they run away from them, even if the child hasn't done anything wrong, he just gets scared and runs."
"My sons are young men and maybe if someone said anything to them they are going to say something back and that might end up hurting them. Sometimes I don't want to tell my sons what I go through so they don't get so upset."
Other impacts
The group briefly discussed the way racist abuse reduces their ability to participate in parent groups and other activities.
"I think that most people here find it hard enough to feel secure and safe at home to be able to go into an environment and then having to put up with more of [the same]. If we're more stable then we can go into the schools and it's not a big deal. You can overcome some of the harassments and discrimination that come your way. But if you're already dealing with your own experiences then it's not fair to have to put more responsibility on the women. We find that most women want to be involved in canteens, want to be involved in P&C meetings. But when you go in there and you feel like you get treated like you're unwanted and everybody feeling like you've got a bomb hidden underneath your hijab, then you don't want to go."
"It happened to me in one of the schools and I tried to overcome it but the principal was the one who was bad, it wasn't the parents themselves. So I had to pull myself out of that school. I did because I did not find any appreciation from the principal. ... And since then none of the parents have turned up because they felt that if I wasn't welcome and I spoke English well then how were they going to feel amongst these people if they don't show welcome at all? Respect. Respect. That's the most important thing."
The influence of the media
We asked how participants feel about the media.
"Humiliation. When they have talk back radio, we get so much dispute."
"I always call up but they don't talk to me. Usually I listen to it and I get so angry because we are not treated fairly. They're just assuming things that are not true. And they keep on saying it, the silly thing is, so that people just start believing it."
"We do go out and talk but we're only a drop in the ocean. But then after you hang up the phone they start the same thing, they don't stop. As soon as you finish the discussion on the phone, the interview with the talk back announcers or whatever; you know, they're very nice with you on the phone and then you hang up the phone and it's like they ignore everything you have said."
Causes of discrimination
We asked whether women in hijab are more at risk than others.
"If my daughter did wear a hijab I'm certain that things will all be different because my oldest daughter before she put on the scarf she didn't used to experience anything. But now that she has she gets abused or stared at all the time. I don't think if I wasn't wearing the hijab a man would walk past me in the street and tell me to go back to my own country."
Reporting discrimination
We asked whether any participants had experience of formally reporting or complaining about the incidents.
What more could be done to fight anti-Arab and anti-Muslim prejudice and discrimination?"We don't say anything to anyone about what happens to us because we are nervous about bringing attention to ourselves."
"I like to speak back. Why should we be afraid? When we came to this country we were welcomed. They weren't."
"If we called the police they can't protect us."
Public education and education for service providers
Participants suggested that the general public and especially service providers need to be educated about Arab and Muslim culture and religious practice and about anti-discrimination laws.
"Cultural education is very important - about culture. Education to everybody, all human beings in Australia, should be implemented; everywhere you go like at schools, in the workplaces. Eg: people who perform their prayers in their workplaces. Why do people stare at them like this? Why do they pray at such a time? People should be educated and plus, the police force should have more knowledge of how to deal with the non-English speaking people."
"But the problem is that we can go to all groups in government offices but the thing is some people are just racist, they don't want to know the truth, they don't want to hear you, and they don't want to know about you."
Education in the Muslim community
"I think a lot of mothers have to educate their children to grow up to be good examples of Muslims because our kids are more outside in the public, so they should have the proper image of Islam. It's our responsibility as well to teach our kids manners, values and deeds."
Complaint bodies
"There should be a body, a body to complain to. I know that [there is an Ombudsman] but when you go up to the police station and tell them I want to speak to someone who is in charge, I want to make a complaint. I can do it in writing but they say 'He's not here. He's not in the office.' They start to go away from the subject. You need someone who's going to respond to you on the spot."
"There has to be someone to enforce the law properly. There has to be a watchdog."
Muslim role models
"I think it would be good to encourage Muslim female police officers. It would be nice to have as many as we can so people can see that it's nothing wrong to be a police officer."
"It also depends on how strong they are in Islam. Once they get into the force they forget where they came from. It's not always a good thing."
"There are though very good police officers who are dedicated to the community."
