Transcript of Hearing - ADELAIDE
Tuesday, 2 July 2002
Please note: This is an edited transcript of a confidential hearing. This witness later agreed that his evidence could be made public.
Commissioners:
DR SEV OZDOWSKI, Human Rights Commissioner
MRS ROBIN SULLIVAN, Queensland Children's Commissioner
PROFESSOR TRANG THOMAS, Professor of Psychology, Melbourne Institute of Technology
MS VANESSA LESNIE, Secretary to the Inquiry
MR ANTHONY HAMILTON-SMITH,
affirmed
Ex-DIMIA Manager from Woomera
DR OZDOWSKI: Thank you very much. Now, could I ask you to state your name, address, qualifications, and the capacity in which you are appearing before this Inquiry?
MR HAMILTON-SMITH: My full name is Anthony Hamilton-Smith, I'm currently residing at [address removed]. The capacity in which I'm appearing is the former Immigration Manager at the Woomera Immigration and Reception Processing Centre. I was there from the beginning of May 2000 to the end of May 2001.
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DR OZDOWSKI: Now I understand you were the manager of Woomera between May 2000 and May 2001, so it was about a year?
MR HAMILTON-SMITH: Yes, it was almost 13 months.
DR OZDOWSKI: 13 months. And your role was to be the top dog in terms of DIMIA?
MR HAMILTON-SMITH: Yes.
DR OZDOWSKI: Can I start with your relationship between you and central office and the regional office. How much freedom in your actions did you have whilst in Woomera?
MR HAMILTON-SMITH: I reported direct to central office, to Detention Operations the majority of that time - to [name removed]. In theory, the regional office role was to provide us with support where needed. That support was limited, erratic and at times rather than assisting with work down there, they transferred work to Woomera.
DR OZDOWSKI: Now, what .
MR HAMILTON-SMITH: Unlike the other offices.
DR OZDOWSKI: Now, what really were your responsibilities in Woomera? What are you really responsible - yes okay, resident, just to look around or .
MR HAMILTON-SMITH: No, they - the responsibilities - I suppose in many ways whenever I've - were not defined. I defined them myself and I gave, if you like, to senior ACM management staff, two directions. One, the people in detention were not criminals. Two, that our role isn't to keep people, but our role is really to move them through as quickly as possible and legally, to leave and .
DR OZDOWSKI: Now .
MR HAMILTON-SMITH: I'll just finish, but what I defined my role as was three-fold. One was the monitoring and ensuring the visa system worked; two, monitoring the contractor's performance, and three, ensuring, if you like, the well-being of people in detention.
DR OZDOWSKI: Monitoring, in my mind, means that you were there to observe and if something was happening which was against your beliefs, standards, your job was to raise that issue with somebody else, or was there much more action associated with the position apart from monitoring?
MR HAMILTON-SMITH: The Canberra perspective was that quarterly you were to provide an assessment report against the detention standards, or if there was something extraordinary you were to raise it immediately, or it should be raised by an ACM through an incident report. However, that type of process focuses on events and generalities after the event, and it does not focus on the causes. I will give you a prime example, or two examples.
When I arrived there, there was one Australian teacher, an exceptional teacher, and a number of qualified people in detention working as teachers. That did have some benefits but it meant an extraordinary load on that one teacher. Now I raise that. I also raise that according to staffing bands, detention officers were under-staffed by 30.
DR OZDOWSKI: And it was according to the contract you had with ACM?
MR HAMILTON-SMITH: No.
DR OZDOWSKI: No.
MR HAMILTON-SMITH: It wasn't that hard and fast in the contract. It was more that they had to produce specific outcomes, otherwise penalties could be placed on them. I raised the impact of staff shortages and six-week turnaround times and prior to the mass break-out in June 2000, I said 'We have staff who are exhausted, many had done 18 hour shifts, we do not have adequate resources to prevent any major incident and ensure overall safety and I would like you to bring some pressure to bear on ACM Sydney to get those 30 staff up there, preferably some with language skills, mix of sexes, and have them on deck immediately.'
The response I got, it was not my business or their business to dictate to the contractors staffing levels. It was more to focus on the outcomes. Unfortunately that means you focus on things after the event rather than before the event. To my mind, in providing services to people for which you have responsibility, which we do under the legislation, that is a woefully inadequate management tool and process.
DR OZDOWSKI: How did you do it, did you ring Canberra, or did that information go through your quarterly report?
MR HAMILTON-SMITH: I did a combination of both.
DR OZDOWSKI: Now, coming back to quarterly reports, they were prepared by you?
MR HAMILTON-SMITH: Yes, they were. They were not the only mechanism used; often it would be phone calls, emails, a whole host of other ways.
DR OZDOWSKI: So one can assume that all these quarterly reports are sitting somewhere in files in DIMIA and we can get access to them?
MR HAMILTON-SMITH: You should be able to. However, at one stage I was instructed to destroy a quarterly report.
DR OZDOWSKI: Who instructed you to destroy the quarterly report?
MR HAMILTON-SMITH: That came from [name removed]. I subsequently checked it and - [name removed], it had come from her.
DR OZDOWSKI: So [name removed] who, as I understand, is in central office, [identifying details removed], instructed you indirectly.
MR HAMILTON-SMITH: Yes.
DR OZDOWSKI: . through that man to destroy quarterly reports. What did you do?
MR HAMILTON-SMITH: I did not destroy it.
DR OZDOWSKI: So where are the quarterly reports now?
MR HAMILTON-SMITH: They should be in Canberra, if that quarterly report is not in Canberra I may be able to acquire a copy.
MR HUNYOR: Sorry, which quarterly report are you referring to?
MR HAMILTON-SMITH: September 2000.
MR HUNYOR: Thank you.
MR HAMILTON-SMITH: And they objected to a line that I used. I said something along the lines: 'Christmas is coming, the centre's been open almost 12 months, we still do not have a playground erected. It would be quicker for the people here to walk the Haj than wait for the erection of play equipment.'
So still - my understanding is there still is not adequate playground equipment erected, it is now nearly three years. There is not grass and so on for the kids to stick under their feet.
DR OZDOWSKI: What was the reason why it wasn't erected, because it appears a small expense, so to say?
MR HAMILTON-SMITH: It is a quite significant expense actually to erect playground equipment under the current standards that have been introduced. However, I think there was a greater concern about legal liability and controlling things rather than provision in that sense for the children. And at that stage many of the children, the toys they had were largely soccer balls and some soft toys, but they needed more activity and often they would play with stones in - in the dirt, despite the fact that the staff on the ground organised many things, there was - there was a high concern from the contractor's office about their own legal liability.
DR OZDOWSKI: Who would usually be responsible for the building of such facilities and paying insurance on usage of it?
MR HAMILTON-SMITH: The responsibility for - if it was built from the ground up - would have lain with the contract builders which, at that stage, was [name removed] with a sub-contract down to [name removed]. .
DR OZDOWSKI: Coming back to the destruction of documents, or the order to destruct documents, was it the only occasion that you were asked to destroy documents?
MR HAMILTON-SMITH: I was directed rather than asked, I was not asked.
DR OZDOWSKI: Yes, you were directed.
MR HAMILTON-SMITH: I was ordered.
DR OZDOWSKI: Yes, you were directed. Was it the only direction you received to destroy official Commonwealth documents relating to that incident?
MR HAMILTON-SMITH: Yes, it was.
DR OZDOWSKI: When this direction was made, would you remember the time when it was made?
MR HAMILTON-SMITH: It was just before the visit of Phillip Flood to Woomera to.
DR OZDOWSKI: To investigate.
MR HAMILTON-SMITH: . to do his formal hearings.
DR OZDOWSKI: I see. And it was just over the telephone, rather than in written form or e-mail or something like that?
MR HAMILTON-SMITH: That's correct, I asked for it in writing.
DR OZDOWSKI: I see, and you are still waiting?
MR HAMILTON-SMITH: Yes, it provoked some laughter.
DR OZDOWSKI: I see, I see. And now, coming to Phillip Flood's visit and the two visits from the Human Rights Commission and so on, what usually happens at a detention centre like Woomera when you learn that the Ombudsman or we or somebody else is coming?
MR HAMILTON-SMITH: Generally, it is advised to you by Canberra and quite often, they will send somebody from Canberra over, say, for a media tour. They didn't send anybody specifically from the Department with Philip Flood although he had Departmental officers assigned to his team. That was the only incident of, if you like, censorship, that I came across.
DR OZDOWSKI: Would he be given, or would we be given, access to everything, or would you try to direct bodies like ours into certain directions so we didn't see things which are more ugly over there?
MR HAMILTON-SMITH: No, no. We would be quite open with things. I was, in particular, and would actually ensure that those people who were in detention and who could be outspoken, whose English was fairly fluent and who could act as advocates for people, I'd consciously make an effort for them to speak.
I viewed that as having two benefits. One, that I'd hope, by doing that, it would bring more pressure to get further improvements and, two, I think there is a degree of feeling of powerlessness and it's not just a perception amongst people, and any opportunities that they have to speak out to people that they think can influence things for the better, it's worth it. It has - it lessens the tension. It also means that they themselves are doing something, and often with me making statements about the playground like that, it was a reflection of the frustration that I could see people feeling, but often they can tell it even more powerfully and meaningfully than I can. I don't see it as a positive approach to silence and control people in detention. I think it's more about managing things.
DR OZDOWSKI: Quite often people, detainees, during their visits are telling us that just before we arrived, a number of new initiatives were put in place, a new teacher was appointed, and better food was served, something was repainted and so on. Is there any truth in it?
MR HAMILTON-SMITH: As for the food, eventually I would eat it myself. Immigration had told me that we shouldn't because it would look like we are taking food out of detainees' mouths but I found by getting management to eat the same food once a week, it was a much better barometer of what was being served than food committees. No, the food was not changed for them.
Now, I do know on some occasions, that ACM - frustrations were getting servicing staff on deck in time, particularly psychologists were miraculously speeded up when there was a visit, say, from yourself or the Ombudsman coming. There were regular tidy ups at Woomera because I don't know if you experienced the winds coming off the desert? Well, they are rated at gale force and if you don't regularly tidy up, the place becomes a mess for people and the environment gets worse than it is and it looks like a tip. So they are just a regular, normal part and a number of the people in detention are paid for doing that work. It's a regular job for them.
DR OZDOWSKI: Would you know how much ACM is allocated under the contract per meal for one person per day?
MR HAMILTON-SMITH: It's not allocated money under contract for meals per day at all. It's an allocation of a fee per detainee per day, an overall fee. Now, initially when I was there, they had some contractor for catering, [name removed], and the standard of some of the food I wouldn't consider good. However that did improve, and eventually they employed a chef who was formerly one of the chefs at the [hotel name removed] and he made an enormous difference. ACM taking over the catering themselves made a lot of improvement.
DR OZDOWSKI: Would you know the amount of money allocated per person per day for total care?
MR HAMILTON-SMITH: Let me see. From memory, it was about $140.
DR OZDOWSKI: What did this money have to cover? Everything including security, psychological services, food, everything?
MR HAMILTON-SMITH: Not everything. It didn't cover escorts, you know, like for medical treatment down to Adelaide.
DR OZDOWSKI: Yes.
MR HAMILTON-SMITH: And it didn't cover, sort of, major hospital bills, things like that.
DR OZDOWSKI: Who paid the bills for hospitals?
MR HAMILTON-SMITH: The major bills, where it was a significant cost, Immigration picked up.
DR OZDOWSKI: Basically, everything to Adelaide would be regarded as a significant bill, wouldn't it?
MR HAMILTON-SMITH: No, there wasn't - yes, pretty well, but there wasn't a thought to say, 'Well, this is going to cost too much, we'll pull back'. It was more done on an as-needs basis. Like, one particular boy, I think, all up on his health care, we would have spent $65,000. Now, if he had have been a normal Australian citizen going through the public health system - probably my own organisation will not like me saying that - he would still be waiting for the operation.
DR OZDOWSKI: Who approved payment of that money?
MR HAMILTON-SMITH: I did.
DR OZDOWSKI: You. It is always the DIMIA manager approving it or do some of the bills need to go to Canberra for approval?
MR HAMILTON-SMITH: If it's a major one, you would have to put the case across to Canberra, but that is very rare. It's those huge bills, like $30,000-$40,000, or ones where you might need oncology service on an ongoing basis which can run into several hundred thousand. Things like pregnancy, cardiac, those are just almost run of the mill. They're not viewed as extraordinary.
DR OZDOWSKI: Did you have some kind of a budget for all this extra?
MR HAMILTON-SMITH: There was no budgetary capping.
DR OZDOWSKI: So, basically, whenever there was a need, you would have signed it and it was done?
MR HAMILTON-SMITH: It was supposed to loosely adhere to the standard waiting times of the Australian public health system which - there were a number of difficulties, particularly psychiatric and psychological ones. We experienced on a number of occasions extreme difficulty with the State Government here, despite the fact that we were paying as private patients in even getting people to get psychiatric care. I can remember one instance where a bloke needed oncology treatment, and the hospital threw him out on the street.
DR OZDOWSKI: Why was that so?
MR HAMILTON-SMITH: They said, 'we needed the bed', and at that stage, we had to run around to find somewhere for him to stay at night. I'd have to say some of the state hospitals, their level of service - I'm quite pleased that I haven't been in them.
DR OZDOWSKI: Going around different centres, we see that the relationship between DIMIA, managers and ACM is different. Sometimes it appears that DIMIA has the upper hand. There are other situations where ACM appears to be top dog in running daily things.
MR HAMILTON-SMITH: Okay, all right.
DR OZDOWSKI: How did it work in Woomera during your time?
MR HAMILTON-SMITH: All right. It was made quite clear to me by Canberra on many occasions that ACM largely calls the tune on day to day management. Now, I think they have concern about legal liability. I think they thought by distancing themselves that they would avoid any legal liability later. However, with [individual ACM managers], we operated very much on a co-operative basis to try and improve things because the place was still being built, there was an intense lack of facilities. Early on, yes, you can accept a rationale for that but as time goes by, that becomes less and less acceptable. Now, there was a key change in my approach. Those riots that occurred in August, they were extraordinarily violent, extraordinarily.
DR OZDOWSKI: Is there a written procedure for separating kids from - when trouble is happening?
MR HAMILTON-SMITH: No, there was not at that stage. That is one of the things that did surprise me when I arrived at Woomera. There were no written procedures, either in Canberra or in Sydney, on crucial things that I would have expected to be available. After all, it was the sixth centre that was opened, and I did the normal thing of asking around in other centres and said, well, you know, 'Where is your policy on allegations of child abuse? Where is your policy on use of restraint?' Now there are some things in the policy control circulars which are quite useful, but there was not the degree of policy development that you would have anticipated from what was a national program.
DR OZDOWSKI: Mr Hamilton-Smith, maybe I will ask my colleagues to ask some questions. The only last one I would like to ask is, coming back to that incident when you were directed to destroy documents, why was that? What do you think was the purpose or motivation of that direction?
MR HAMILTON-SMITH: I think they were extremely concerned on reflection that Philip Flood, the Flood Inquiry, would attribute some blame for the treatment of children to the head offices of ACM and Immigration.
DR OZDOWSKI: Your quarterly report contains such evidence which could give some support for Philip Flood's conclusion in this area?
MR HAMILTON-SMITH: That is correct.
DR OZDOWSKI: Thank you.
MR HAMILTON-SMITH: Can I just finish?
DR OZDOWSKI: Yes, please.
MR HAMILTON-SMITH: The reason following that, and me being locked out of information, I decided to take a different approach from the one that central office had advocated of saying, 'Well, largely you are responsible for day-to-day management'. I decided a more active approach was needed if we were not to have a repeat of such scenes so I - because reporting after the event, it is just too late and it's a farcical situation, so I actually said to senior management people, 'This is what I want to see. I want to see that we are analysing the incident reports. I want to see that there is progress. I want to see that the prayer areas are in place. I want to see that there is more stuff coming through', and would push, for instance - and at times, yes, I'd threaten.
Now, where I was able to do things and bring that pressure on I got results. I also made sure that I would randomly - and the Operations Manager - we would randomly check on staff at night, early in the morning, things like that, so they wouldn't know when we would appear.
DR OZDOWSKI: ACM staff?
MR HAMILTON-SMITH: Yes, trying .
DR OZDOWSKI: What - whether they asleep or whether they stayed there? What were you checking?
MR HAMILTON-SMITH: Whether they are asleep, whether they are running an unauthorised operation, whether Sydney has got them running another operation. The unattached minors are asleep and in bed, rather than roaming around and getting up to mischief, that the staff aren't hiding behind a building smoking cigarettes rather than seeing what's going on. They're observing if, you know, buildings are being vandalised, falling apart, they have an idea in their areas whether there's a person that needs assistance.
Like at one stage we had an [age removed] Afghani woman who ended up having difficulty walking. She was [age removed] with a daughter [age removed] suffering from [a disability].
DR OZDOWSKI: How long did they spend in the detention centre?
MR HAMILTON-SMITH: Nine months.
DR OZDOWSKI: Nine months?
MR HAMILTON-SMITH: I think, and I had to argue with my people in Canberra to get them sent to Sydney on release [identifying details removed], and they said, 'No, the Minister does not allow anyone to go to Sydney'. I said, 'Well, if you want her to go interstate, she will end up going to Sydney but she may not make it. What do you want, somebody dead on the bus? Finally they relented and we sent her to Sydney.
DR OZDOWSKI: I will ask now.
MR HAMILTON-SMITH: Sorry.
DR OZDOWSKI: . Professor Thomas to ask some questions?
PROF THOMAS: So you are currently on leave from DIMIA?
MR HAMILTON-SMITH: Yes, I am.
PROF THOMAS: What do you think about the impact of Woomera on the staff in general, including the ACM officers?
MR HAMILTON-SMITH: Those that don't shut themselves off - they say, 'this isn't my responsibility', they do fine. Those that care, nearly all of them I know have either left or have got Post Traumatic Stress Disorder. I've come across at least 15 people I know. A couple have been told they will never work again.
PROF THOMAS: Do you think the situation would be improved or better if DIMIA takes control of the running of Woomera instead of ACM?
MR HAMILTON-SMITH: I think unless they put staff in that have some understanding or appreciation of the various cultures, I don't necessarily think it will improve. It will improve - hang on - it will improve in the sense of logistics and supplies on concrete goods coming in, but in terms of human care not necessarily, because there's been a shift in the immigration culture from the people department to a control department.
MS LESNIE: Perhaps I could ask one question and that is; your role as the guardian of the unaccompanied minors, you say in your statement that you took that position very seriously and I was wondering what it is that you did in that guardianship role?
MR HAMILTON-SMITH: I insisted that there be at least one male, one female detention officer allocated to the minors and they be consistent, continuous. I insisted that there be a psychologist assigned to them. I insisted that there be a weekly report of everybody and everything, no matter how small, come in, that I get copies of it. We also implemented a system of them having a different band around their ID card. It wasn't to pinpoint them so much as to say, if they were lining up for meals and they were being jostled by some older men that they were immediately recognised by the detention officers and they were told to act in a parental role, to resolve it, support the boy. I also - normally if I wasn't in Court or facing another Inquiry, I would see them once a fortnight myself.
I also told one of my staff - 'I want you to keep an eye on - just go and see them', [name removed], who because she has a gentleness there. And in addition I reinforced [to] the boys that they needed to support each other as well. We accommodated them together, around families rather than single men. An additional thing we did - or I did - because they didn't have their parents who would explain about the whole process of their application. The immigration theory is, tell our lawyers. They were minors so I ran a couple of sessions for them and had them ask questions, you know, even explaining down to the Federal Court, where they could complain, how they could get forms, all of that. Actually, most of that was videoed, it is somewhere in ACM at Woomera.
Now I know my own organisation frowned upon that, but I had a legal responsibility to the boys rather than a bureaucratic separation. Now we also would make sure they went to school and how they were doing. A couple of times, [I would] go and play table-tennis with them. I know that seems silly when you are very busy but how do you become accessible to them and sometimes you have to do things like that. I'm - how do you put it - when I was there, I almost felt proud of them because they didn't have their parents, they did the best at school. They were doing better than the other kids. Their behaviour was good.
They were a good group of boys. I find that very distressing and I've heard since that they staged a sort of mini riot, five of them attempted to self harm including hanging themselves. They are a good group of boys, very good group. I just can't understand how that has come about. The expectations, often put upon by parents who may have sent them out, are huge. They have stresses that the other children don't face. A number of them aren't what they claim, you know, Pakistani rather than Afghani but that is not a reason to expose them or persecute them.
They have a difficulty being alone and that adds another degree of pressure upon them that is extreme. You can see it and they need to feel that somebody cares about them rather than it is just an institution, and [name removed] was very, very good in just going and seeing if there was a problem. I used that almost as an audit mechanism. She would come and say, 'Look, [name removed] is not well but he won't tell me what it is. Do you think you could go and have a talk to him?' And it worked but it wasn't perfect, but you have to use what you've got sometimes.
DR OZDOWSKI: Mr Hamilton-Smith we have run out of time.
MR HAMILTON-SMITH: I'm sorry.
DR OZDOWSKI: We were not - we would like to talk to you much longer but there are some other witnesses waiting. Could we perhaps reserve a right if it is possible to give you a call in case we would like to clarify some details .
MR HAMILTON-SMITH: I would be very - yes.
DR OZDOWSKI: .in the context of the writing of the report and my personal thank you and also thank you for your contribution to this Inquiry. I understand also that you wrote to colleagues of yours who would like to give the evidence here.
MR HAMILTON-SMITH: They will make arrangements. [Identifying details removed].
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DR OZDOWSKI: Please continue encouraging people. We would be willing to receive any written material or would also be willing to arrange further interviews or meetings, whatever you need. I'm from time to time in Adelaide, I would be willing to meet or, if it is necessary, I will ask the Secretary to the Inquiry to come and meet with the people especially.
MR HAMILTON-SMITH: There's something I was after, but the teacher who was there at the time, there's a lot more that she wrote, but she said something like, 'The facility itself was always a work in progress, not only physically but demands to appease and sate, all has its toll. The time was self-depreciating [sic], not only to detainees but the crew working there' and much of that, along those lines. But she has given a feel for what the place was in almost poetic words, and if you like I will see if I can get the full copy for you.
DR OZDOWSKI: We would appreciate it.
MR HAMILTON-SMITH: Because I don't think I've heard words used quite so well as what she did.
DR OZDOWSKI: Thank you very much, Mr Hamilton-Smith.
MR HAMILTON-SMITH: Thank you, and I hope you can improve something as there are things I still want to.
Last Updated 18 July 2004
